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Post by Zed. on Feb 5, 2019 17:29:18 GMT
As titled realy, I'm looking into fitting an Alien (ford based) gearbox in my car & have been looking into diff options & it seems that I'll be keeping the Mazda setup but binning the PPF..... has anyone done this (PPF delete) ?? I know its a reasonablly common process in the US with the v8 & S2000 conversions and I've read about all thats posted on the 'net BUT would like to hear real-world feedback as well as design ideas if theres any? for example, the Kmiata conversion kmiata.com/collections/transmission-upgrades/products/rear-differential-mount-for-ppf-delete gives a good idea of a low-mounted (tension reaction) and theres many top-mounted (in compression to the rear subframe) ideas online :-? Thanks all (in advance?) Rich.
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Post by dadbif on Feb 8, 2019 7:23:59 GMT
It probably only exists in the Mazda because of lack of torsional stiffness in the body, lots of other convertibles do not have PPF’s , but they more often or not have a separate chassis linking the front and rear of the car, torque will twist the chassis, more power more torque. I can remember building a Turboed Corniche, the body twisted that much that the windscreen (not bonded in) kept popping out. The cure was to reinforce the sills, that may be an option for you...
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Post by Horney on Feb 10, 2019 9:45:56 GMT
The PPF is to keep the gear box and diff and aligned and minimise axle tramp. I’d look to adapt the PPF to fit the new box. Without one the diff will move about all over the place.
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Post by dadbif on Feb 10, 2019 12:19:38 GMT
From "Miata - Mazda MX-5," by Jack Yamaguchi and John Dinkel, pages 45-46:
"The Power Plant Frame (PPF) is an open-section, aluminum truss frame that connects the power unit and the final-drive/mounting bracket assembly, forming an integrated power plant. The PPF is tucked away under the car's floor pan, running on the right side of the propeller shaft.
It is press-formed from 6-mm-gauge aluminum sheet, and has an intricate shape with varied section heights and widths (highest and widest: 163 mm and 60 mm respectively) and a number of weight-saving holes. It weighs 10.8 lb (4.9 kg), including the attaching bolts, and measures 57.6 in. (1,463 mm) long.
The PPF greatly reduces drive-train bending during acceleration/deceleration resulting in a direct transmission of engine power to the driving wheels and improved driving feel." __________________
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Post by Rickster on Feb 10, 2019 18:13:47 GMT
The PPF AFAIK is absolutely key to the handling of the mx5, if you do not get it re-aligned correctly after removal (within mm) it causes lots of issues (inc axle tramp.) I would hope that any replacement for the PPF would be tried and tested - my only question would be if you have mounts which more rigidly hold engine/gearbox and diff it can transfer loads of vibration into the car, so they need both resistance to twisting but some flexibility?
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Post by Zed. on Feb 14, 2019 23:24:07 GMT
okey, I've been looking at possible methods of adapting the ford gearbox to mount the ppf. but it doesn't look promising.. even welding part of a mazda gearbox to the ford tailhousing! the 'delete' method is common in the USA especially as it allows 'alien' engine conversions like the V8 & S2000 amongst others (with great success and many happy owners) I'd love to have an easy-fit setup, easy to repair as everything is from the same manufacturer but unfortunately theres a lot of mazda specific parts taht are expensive for competion vehicles - look at quaife and their sccr gearkit? costs about the same as a nice '5 quaife also make a 6speed sequential gearbox & suitable conversion bellhousing (bellhousing is ~£700 retail!, think its ~£7k+ for the sequential box?) and if I'm correct, this does not use the ppf........ as I'm lookin at a sprint & hillclimb car not weekend cruiser so noise (with a straight-cut gearbox? anyone driven one especially in anger? somewhat LOUD! ) is a given. also, if anyone is interested, I'm looking at replacing the OEM rubber bushings with metal joints / spherical bearings so less comfortable as a commuter & I will use it as a commuter car, everything I have including rallycars are daily driven - for s hi ts&giggles obviously Rich. (bodger)
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Post by Whistler on Feb 15, 2019 16:02:17 GMT
quaife also make a 6speed sequential gearbox & suitable conversion bellhousing (bellhousing is ~£700 retail!, think its ~£7k+ for the sequential box?) and if I'm correct, this does not use the ppf........ For the record - The Quaife sequential box can be adapted to retain the PPF.
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Post by Zed. on Feb 15, 2019 17:23:40 GMT
quaife also make a 6speed sequential gearbox & suitable conversion bellhousing (bellhousing is ~£700 retail!, think its ~£7k+ for the sequential box?) and if I'm correct, this does not use the ppf........ For the record - The Quaife sequential box can be adapted to retain the PPF. now then, thats a usefull photo unfortunately the ford 'type 9' gearbox I have is diferent at the rear / tailhousing where the gearbox mount fits (where the angle-bracket is bolted between ppf & tailhousing) although its something to consider... for comparison, the t9 looks like... Rich.
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Post by Whistler on Feb 15, 2019 18:55:55 GMT
Can't you use the holes at the back of the selector for a PPF bracket? #Wheretheresawill
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Post by Whistler on Feb 15, 2019 19:04:34 GMT
For the record - The Quaife sequential box can be adapted to retain the PPF. I love the idea of the Type 9 box, but I can't help wondering why it hasn't been tried before.
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Post by Zed. on Feb 15, 2019 19:08:56 GMT
Can't you use the holes at the back of the selector for a PPF bracket? problem is that section is ~8mm thick & origonally for mounting a lump of iron aas a 'harmonic-resonance' doo-dah thinggy so not verry strong also usually only seen on mk3 Granada / Scorpio cars the 'normal' gearbox mount position is the inverted 'A' foreward of the holes you mention, these 'A' castings are known to break in competition - sometimes in low-power cars on smooth roads unfortunately not that strong... what I'd call the 'best' option would be to mount from the 6 bolts (3 each side vertically) that secure the tailhousing to the intermediate bearing housing & the main case, one issue with this is that 3 bolts (iirc) pass through the cast maincase into the 'wet' gear chamber so possibility of leakage due to stress on the bolts & vibration #I think Rich.
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Post by Zed. on Feb 15, 2019 19:23:04 GMT
I love the idea of the Type 9 box, but I can't help wondering why it hasn't been tried before. cost? seems that the only commercially available bellhousing is from quaife @£££££££'s? the ppf isue? (or how to mount a torque reaction mount on the diff? - gearbox mount is easy especially with some simple fabrication ) also, the ford gearbox is no stronger than the mazda offering, the main benefit is the availability of 'better' ratio gearkits, both hellical & straight-cut with the latter offering 'dog' engagement for reasonable £££'s straight-cut / close ratio gearkits are available for the 5's gearbox but horribly priced so not an option for me. if you look at the Mazda 6 speed gearbox as fitted to mk2 / NB 5's, this has a great 'race' close-ratio gearkit BUT only if you drive it as a 'dogleg' gearchange AND forget 1st gear so drive it as a 5 speed (ignore 1st except for wheelspin, climbing up the side of a house & 'normal driving to the shops with mam ) to me, the Mazda option is not useable as I want to use an easily available multiplate clutch (AP Racing's 7 1/4" range are redily available, I have a few in the garage BUT getting driven-plates with the Mazda 'odd' 22spline @ 24mm is not easy so the Ford 23spline @ 1" and coincidentally I have these also said Tran-x gearkit in stock so.....) the 7 1/4" (184mm dia) clutch is interesting to me also due to the smaller rotating mass and (slightly) quicker revving that the engine should be..... HOPEFULLY............ Rich.
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Post by Whistler on Feb 15, 2019 21:20:11 GMT
I love the idea of the Type 9 box, but I can't help wondering why it hasn't been tried before. cost? seems that the only commercially available bellhousing is from quaife @£££££££'s? the ppf isue? (or how to mount a torque reaction mount on the diff? - gearbox mount is easy especially with some simple fabrication ) also, the ford gearbox is no stronger than the mazda offering, the main benefit is the availability of 'better' ratio gearkits, both hellical & straight-cut with the latter offering 'dog' engagement for reasonable £££'s straight-cut / close ratio gearkits are available for the 5's gearbox but horribly priced so not an option for me. if you look at the Mazda 6 speed gearbox as fitted to mk2 / NB 5's, this has a great 'race' close-ratio gearkit BUT only if you drive it as a 'dogleg' gearchange AND forget 1st gear so drive it as a 5 speed (ignore 1st except for wheelspin, climbing up the side of a house & 'normal driving to the shops with mam ) to me, the Mazda option is not useable as I want to use an easily available multiplate clutch (AP Racing's 7 1/4" range are redily available, I have a few in the garage BUT getting driven-plates with the Mazda 'odd' 22spline @ 24mm is not easy so the Ford 23spline @ 1" and coincidentally I have these also said Tran-x gearkit in stock so.....) the 7 1/4" (184mm dia) clutch is interesting to me also due to the smaller rotating mass and (slightly) quicker revving that the engine should be..... HOPEFULLY............ Rich. I knew about the ratios, but I thought they were stronger boxes. Good luck with the project though... it'll be an interesting build!
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Post by dadbif on Feb 15, 2019 22:27:45 GMT
The Ford type 9 box is excellent, I fitted one to my Westfield, mated to a Vauxhall 2.0ltr XE engine. ISTR getting the bell housing from a chap in Blackburn..
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Post by Zed. on Feb 16, 2019 15:29:19 GMT
The Ford type 9 box is excellent, I fitted one to my Westfield, mated to a Vauxhall 2.0ltr XE engine. the t9 is a relatively cheap answer thats used to many questions, strong enough but also redily available, the XE on the other hand is a wonderfull engine, 150hp as standard when strangled with roadcar management & manifolds - add decent imanifolds / management & throttlebodies then a reliable & road-driveable 200hp is common (and then its add cams / decent pistons & rods for more etc. ) Titan make the bellhousings that most people sell & re-brand (I think) I like the Vauxhall engines, especially the 20XE and I have a few in my garage... sorta many times I have considered fiting one to my Eunos (dry-sump maybe?) although I like the 1.6 mazda engine as it works so well................ Rich.
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