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Post by V6 on May 8, 2019 7:02:51 GMT
When I first got my low mileage mk1 I was happy enough with a Racing Beat intake, manifold and exhaust system. Lots of fun and a good noise. My only other plan was to either fit ITB or a supercharger later on.
Unfortunately my very low mile standard engine died. Then another one died. One was top end. The other was bottom end. So third time lucky... I was supplied a lovely engine from MX5 City. This one ran perfectly ever since. Didnt even use oil. Was perfect for 1.5 years or so.
However the above put me off from adding more power to a Mazda engine. In my mind, to do it properly, so I could trust it, was going to require a full engine build. Stronger forged parts etc. Whether going for NA or FI. That alone will cost thousands. Then add the cost of either NA tuning, or FI tuning on top... Big money. A minimum of £8k for a proper turbo build in my mind. More for NA tuning.
Having owned various cars I prefer NA for corner throttle control and the overall sound. My turbo cars were fun but kinda one trick straight line ponies. Not that exciting aurally or to control.
So for me the costs above lead me to other options. Engine swaps. Take your pick. But I like Honda for reliability. You can opt for a 2.0 or 2.4 four pot. Or go for an import V6 for better sounds. Loads of options really.
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Post by Vindi (Russell) on May 11, 2019 8:41:53 GMT
Not sure how I missed this before ... I'm sure this will have cost a fair bit to achieve, but seriously the best cars I've driven have all been NA. So if you get an NA car but it has the power of a turbo conversion ... what's better?!! This is a dyno plot of an NA car that we recently modified. The car is a Mk1 1.8 and produced 90 hub HP as standard on our dyno (Mazda claim 128 bhp @flywheel). After modifications the car now produces 177 hub HP. Conversions from Hub/Wheel/Flywheel always cause arguments on the internet but 90 Hub HP is what we see from most 1.8 MX5's and this car is now producing double that HP - I let you do the maths for flywheel power but we are pretty sure what it is :-) (1.6 MX5 is around 80 Hub HP and a Mk3 2.0ltr is 120 Hub HP)  Just to clarify, I've had plenty of FI cars ... 185, 200, 220 and 245bhp supercharged cars ... 150, 205, 240 and 260bhp turbo cars. I have a 260bhp turbo on my drive at the moment! I've also had 160, 185, 220 and 250bhp NA cars. I've had a short drive of a 240bhp 1.8 NA race car, which is the one that wins my 'favourite car' accolade. I know that a well set up turbo can have minimal lag, but it's just not a patch on the instantaneous throttle response a tuned NA engine gives My ultimate MX5 would probably have a V6, some of the modern V6 engines are lighter than the standard MX5 engines, so give you the possibility of improving the MX5s balance and handling. Russell |
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Post by scottydugg on Jul 2, 2019 10:27:15 GMT
I've spent a lot of time pondering this whilst I'm working on my 5, to try keep my sanity whilst I'm searching for that bolt I just dropped.
I think the only way I'd go would be picking up a second hand complete supercharger kit from a forum/facebook. My reason being that it's an easier install than a turbo (I can use my existing exhaust, wheel/tyre combo etc.), the power is made in a linear way like the N/A motor (less likely to get myself in trouble), The supercharger whine, probably cheaper than a turbo kit.
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Post by jackyboy on Jul 4, 2019 22:21:05 GMT
Supercharging is very simple and reliable I'm inept and even I can change a belt or take off and re adjust the supercharger. Change pully etc.
If tuned professionally I think it's the way to go for power. Pretty much Na feel just masses of torque!
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Post by niklas on Jul 8, 2019 18:49:03 GMT
For less power that is. When it comes to adapting large lysholms to the 5 not many are around. Most turbo setups make more power than most supercharger setups. Not saying that power is everything.
I make boost at 1200 rpm
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Post by Rickster on Jul 8, 2019 19:38:01 GMT
I'd agree with this:- "My ultimate MX5 would probably have a V6, some of the modern V6 engines are lighter than the standard MX5 engines, so give you the possibility of improving the MX5s balance and handling" Vindi (Russell) - which v6 is your candidate, the AJV6 is an obvious choice, but perhaps not as easy conversion as some think. Can the transverse candidates (Mazda/Ford) be easily converted? What others would you recommend? |
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Post by Vindi (Russell) on Jul 8, 2019 19:55:43 GMT
My ultimate V6 would be the LFX, 300 to 340bhp as standard, and the conversions are coming out around 30kg lighter than the standard car.
The Jag engine is nice enough, but it's on the edge of what the Mazda drive train would take. I'm after a track setup, and I don't think the gearbox or diff would last long on sticky tyres with track use, so it wouldn't make sense for me to go that way
For cheaper options, the 2.5l Mazda KL engine makes a lot of sense ... Claire at Crapengineering does a good kit, that would put you at around 200 - 220bhp which is right on the sweet spot for the MX5 chassis
The other interesting option is the Honda J series engine, more power than the Mazda engine and the sump / starter motor placement is a bit awkward, but the cost would be a third to a quarter of the Jag or LFX options
Russell
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Post by V6 on Jul 26, 2019 16:56:07 GMT
I'm not too sure on some of the numbers being quoted in this thread.
Not too sure a 240bhp Jag engine will be pushing much near any limits either.
Also the costs between a 300bhp J32A setup won't be much different to a Rocketeer kit with full installation, international postage and import duties etc. The JDM route is more hassle as minor issues need to be solved along the way. Plus the time for this needs to be taken into consideration. But it has various benefits listed elsewhere.
So I'd suggest people do their own research before assume xyz is as cheap as a bag of chips / weighs nothing / has xxx power etc.
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Post by Vindi (Russell) on Aug 2, 2019 19:47:44 GMT
I'm not too sure on some of the numbers being quoted in this thread. Not too sure a 240bhp Jag engine will be pushing much near any limits either. Also the costs between a 300bhp J32A setup won't be much different to a Rocketeer kit with full installation, international postage and import duties etc. The JDM route is more hassle as minor issues need to be solved along the way. Plus the time for this needs to be taken into consideration. But it has various benefits listed elsewhere. So I'd suggest people do their own research before assume xyz is as cheap as a bag of chips / weighs nothing / has xxx power etc. From what I can see, the Rocketeer cars are generally coming out at 260 to 280bhp. That's from the Rocketeer website, and the cars they've had on their stand. I think some of the differences in costs will be down to who does the work. If you're getting someone else to do everything, you'll be in for £000s in labour charges with some of these builds. Import charges can add a lot as well, for sure ... the LFX builds would make a lot more sense for anyone based in the US Russell |
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Post by V6 on Aug 3, 2019 7:40:18 GMT
I just think these claims are a little unrealistic now. First of all 240bhp was the accepted known power level of the Jag. Now they are up another 50bhp haha. Yeah OK, sure.
BTW, the real weights of the LFX are on wiki. Real power levels too.
Lots of real info is out there. I just think these claims are now out of hand and will be misleading people. Enthusiasm is good. But a degree of realism would be useful too, IMHO.
I even take the claims of the power of mine with a pinch of salt from US tuners. So I'm not anti any particular engines. Just trying to be realistic.
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Post by Vindi (Russell) on Aug 4, 2019 6:54:12 GMT
I just think these claims are a little unrealistic now. First of all 240bhp was the accepted known power level of the Jag. Now they are up another 50bhp haha. Yeah OK, sure. BTW, the real weights of the LFX are on wiki. Real power levels too. Lots of real info is out there. I just think these claims are now out of hand and will be misleading people. Enthusiasm is good. But a degree of realism would be useful too, IMHO. I even take the claims of the power of mine with a pinch of salt from US tuners. So I'm not anti any particular engines. Just trying to be realistic. I'll be honest, I don't know how much the Jag V6 gives ... but I think 240 is the standard claimed output in the Jag, so gaining 20 to 40bhp by losing several cats and silencers, adding a much better flowing exhaust and intake, and putting in an aftermarket ECU to tune it more towards performance seems about right to me? In the same way, the Mazda V6 is 165bhp as standard, but to get it in the MX5 you make all the changes above, plus Claire adds throttle bodies ... which generally seems to get to just over 200bhp when they are rolling roaded. The LFX I've just quoted factory power on, but I think the Greek car ended up on about 305 once it was in and running ... to be fair, that fits the US theme of over claiming bhp outputs. The weight of the LFX was off a thread on a US forum, where V8 roadsters posted a picture of their car being corner weighted before and after installation, so I think it's accurate ... some of the weight saving will be coming from the engine with integral manifolds, and some will be coming from the lightweight prop, tubular subframe etc. If there are more accurate power claims I'd be interested to see them, I'm at a crossroads with my engine choice at the moment and want to be as informed as I can be Russell |
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Post by Vindi (Russell) on Aug 4, 2019 7:15:39 GMT
With the Honda J engine, I wasn't factoring having an imported engine along with my costs, I was assuming a £300 english engine and doing the work myself. I had worked out I could do it for around £3500 all in, which I was under target on when I sold my kit.
I have to admit I'm intrigued by the Honda J engine as an option in the future, but I think I'd still look at a UK J30 engine with a J32 head and some engine / head work to keep costs down? Still very much reading up on that, though as it's not a common route and it's hard to find accurate figures as with most of the other engines!
Russell
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Post by V6 on Aug 4, 2019 7:46:59 GMT
The good thing about the Rocketeer is their kit is properly developed and included everything, from what I have seen.
Mine, not so much! Poor backup from the sellers. Emails not always replied to. Zero customer service when problems arise. The flywheel spacer was alloy ffs, so you have to make that properly in steel with proper bolts with shoulders. Basic common sense but ignored by sellers. No plumbing included, so massive delays sourcing all that. Hassle and delays is what sums mine up. Basically all the kit has is a subframe and some accessories.
So many costs are not mentioned. Examples: AEM plug and play ecu, plus loom, guages, sensors... From UK distributor with warranty is well over two grand alone. Yes you could use the OEM Honda one for $30 but the power will be prarrie canoe. Or use a UK DIY cheap tat Ecu then have hassle connecting it up.
Add in some rare CompTech manifolds developed for this engine. £600. Then a full custom exhaust system. Not cheap in total.
Want the best from the engine? Add a large throttle £500, ported runners, Holley plenum kit and other stuff. Another grand or so.
If I did it again I'd be tempted to take the Rocketeer route. BUT... I don't believe their latest power claims for a three litre engine. Not unless they have loads of hidden internal work done, thousands spent on ITB, cams, etc.
End of the day, after all the bloody time, expense, hassle... I will have something different. An all JDM car. With good noises, good response, plenty of shove.
No options will be cheap. Not done right.
PS... I think I will be lucky to break 300bhp on my 3.2 VTEC. Even with all the right parts here so it breathes right. I don't totally belive the claims of 318+ it should apparently make. Sounds like pub / tuner chat to me. I also maintain this skepticism of all the other engines out there. Maybe if I end up adding hot cams and ti springs it will be higher. We will see. But I may not even quote what it makes in the end. Or I can see Jag engine builders will be claiming 350 by then lol. Top Trumps pub chat rules. Same back in the day with TVR Griffiths. Blatant lies coming from the factory. None made 350bhp. All were in the high two hundreds.
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Post by schercheeroo on Aug 4, 2019 8:37:05 GMT
From what I can see, the Rocketeer cars are generally coming out at 260 to 280bhp Video shows the engine makes 232hp. They then state a better exhaust is worth an extra 20hp (8.6% power increase) which I think is overly optimistic. |
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Post by V6 on Aug 4, 2019 9:11:23 GMT
You'd think the exhaust, or lack of, in a dyno room would be free flowing enough I know the Accord Type S forums all say removing the prarrie canoe cast manifold and zig zag downpipe mess releases 30bhp. That was a shock how badly the OEM pipes were. Even the original reviews of the new car mentioned as much. Bookmarked somewhere. As said, I think the Rocketeer is the best UK option. I'd just accept 240 will be your lot and deal with it. ITB set up will add some but at circa £5k on a V6 why bother. Based on quotes I've received before of £4k on a four pot. Not Chinese ebay junk BTW. Jenvey or Omex with pro instal and set up.
Or you can add a large throttle and a Holley. I read a thorough test in a USA article with graphs and details. On even a highly tuned NA V8 with every possible upgrade (ti springs, hot cams, literally everything) the Holley added another 5-6%. Sounds mad but they swear by them. Of course you can kiss your bonnet goodbye. But low mass, simple, good power add on.
The Rocketeer options look overly complex and squished to fit under the bonnet. Also a minor point, but I'm not a fan of engine out expensive timing chain swaps either. So I'd prefer a £50 belt swop personally.
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le sigh