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Post by Bilbo on May 16, 2022 19:26:50 GMT
So, now that this is getting a bit more real, I need to think about the next bits of the ITB build. I hardly know anything about it so please excuse the basic questions! I've read through Bilbo's thread ECU: Not particularly restricted by cost, but just want to buy/fit once. I gather there's a plug and play version of Megasquirt, which is attractive to me as wiring is my least favourite job and I've never done any tuning. I don't have one yet so need to work out which one to get - any opinions on these? Any others I should think about?
Fuel - I've got a set of RX8 yellow injectors, do I even need them for a NA build? What about a fuel rail?
Spark - I've got a COP setup, have been thinking about fitting that even before sorting the ITBs, presume I'd need the new ECU for that?
Vacuum - what do I actually need to connect? I've got a port on the manifold to connect it to.
Sensors - I've got a completely stock NA 1.6 engine and sensors. What else do I need?
What else have I completely forgotten?
Injectors - it won't hurt to upgrade, but standard are fine unless you go mad on the n/a tuning. From memory I think my 1.6 injectors don't go over 75% duty cycle with the ITBs, so plenty of headroom there without upgrading. However some aftermarket injectors may have a better spray pattern which could be beneficial for atomisation of fuel and other sciencey things I don't understand. I've heard mixed things about RX8 injectors, not everyone loves them, but they will do the job if you want to upgrade. COPS - I don't know a ton about these but did help a mate fit his a few months ago. His came with a kit to pin them into the coil pins on his ECU (ME221). Every ECU is different, so check what is involved in converting to COPS with each aftermarket ECU ahead of time, so you know what you'll need. For vacuum, I use vacuum line for 3 things: - Brake booster (you get less vacuum from ITBs so be prepared for a slightly different feel to the pedal as the brake booster may not be as effective. Brakes are still decent though). - Fuel Pressure Regulator (Again, this is how the car is OEM, with the FPR hooked into the intake manifold, so I just replicated it). - MAP reference for ECU (I run my car on Alpha-N which is all TPS based for fuel, but still like to have a vacuum reference, especially when I first started the car, to check the value was sane and seemed correct). I used a cheap vacuum block, and just bolted it to the firewall. It does the job. It's not great as the threads on the barbs for each connection strip so easily, but it works. I have taken a vacuum line from each throttle body and run them into the vacuum block. The 3 things I mentioned above are then also run into the vacuum block. Make sure any unused holes on the vacuum block are bunged and sealed, or you'll get big vac leaks, which isn't ideal. I notice your new manifold has what appears to be a vacuum port on it, you could use this for one of the things you need vacuum for, if you don't use it, bung it. As for fuel rail, not sure. Had a look at your photo and your new manifold won't support a standard fuel rail as it doesn't have the posts you bolt the rail to, also it doesn't have the fuel injector holes that sit in the top of the ports on 1.6 manifolds, so that isn't an option. You'll need to use a rail that you can bolt onto your throttle bodies, you already have the injector holes on the bodies. Now it's just a case of finding an appropriate rail, and an injector setup that will fit those holes nicely. Perhaps the original bike fuel rail? Not sure if that would work, I imagine the original bike injectors would be too small and require wiring work to get them to plug in to the mk1 injector loom. I used standard rail and injectors on mine so can't really help on that one. |
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Post by scottydugg on May 17, 2022 8:36:44 GMT
COPS are only to provide a stronger spark, it'd probably be over kill on an ITB build if you're never going to see boost. I was told by my tuner the RX8 injectors aren't great for getting a good idle out of, they don't atomise well as rotaries don't need it (or something like that), I'd stick with your stock injectors like Bilbo says.
Speeduino unit is a cost effective way of going aftermarket ECU, just make sure you have a tuner that's happy to tune whatever ECU you go for.
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Post by atlex on May 17, 2022 8:47:02 GMT
COPS are good because they're easier to replace than a whole unit at the back of the engine. Those coils can be expensive to replace, or at least, they were, once upon a time. (I've found cheap and apparently 'performance' replacements listed..) - whereas you can just replace the single bad COP when it goes bad. The RX8 yellows idle _perfectly_ and has superior atomisation (since it's a pintle type, a more modern design) than any of the standard NA and NB injectors. It's a very similar design and CC to the RDX (410cc) injectors which are popular for the K20/K24 series. I run the yellows on both my mazdas and .. zero problems. Your tuner is trying to upsell you scottydugg . |
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Post by boggissimo on May 17, 2022 14:33:37 GMT
+ Link G4X. Don't touch ME221 or any ME products. Interesting, why not ME221 etc atlex? |
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Post by atlex on May 17, 2022 14:47:16 GMT
+ Link G4X. Don't touch ME221 or any ME products. Interesting, why not ME221 etc atlex ? I'd rather not make this thread about that, so I'll leave it at saying 'the history is really bad' :-) |
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Post by boggissimo on May 17, 2022 14:47:31 GMT
Injectors - it won't hurt to upgrade, but standard are fine unless you go mad on the n/a tuning. From memory I think my 1.6 injectors don't go over 75% duty cycle with the ITBs, so plenty of headroom there without upgrading. However some aftermarket injectors may have a better spray pattern which could be beneficial for atomisation of fuel and other sciencey things I don't understand. I've heard mixed things about RX8 injectors, not everyone loves them, but they will do the job if you want to upgrade. COPS - I don't know a ton about these but did help a mate fit his a few months ago. His came with a kit to pin them into the coil pins on his ECU (ME221). Every ECU is different, so check what is involved in converting to COPS with each aftermarket ECU ahead of time, so you know what you'll need. For vacuum, I use vacuum line for 3 things: - Brake booster (you get less vacuum from ITBs so be prepared for a slightly different feel to the pedal as the brake booster may not be as effective. Brakes are still decent though). - Fuel Pressure Regulator (Again, this is how the car is OEM, with the FPR hooked into the intake manifold, so I just replicated it). - MAP reference for ECU (I run my car on Alpha-N which is all TPS based for fuel, but still like to have a vacuum reference, especially when I first started the car, to check the value was sane and seemed correct). I used a cheap vacuum block, and just bolted it to the firewall. It does the job. It's not great as the threads on the barbs for each connection strip so easily, but it works. I have taken a vacuum line from each throttle body and run them into the vacuum block. The 3 things I mentioned above are then also run into the vacuum block. Make sure any unused holes on the vacuum block are bunged and sealed, or you'll get big vac leaks, which isn't ideal. I notice your new manifold has what appears to be a vacuum port on it, you could use this for one of the things you need vacuum for, if you don't use it, bung it. As for fuel rail, not sure. Had a look at your photo and your new manifold won't support a standard fuel rail as it doesn't have the posts you bolt the rail to, also it doesn't have the fuel injector holes that sit in the top of the ports on 1.6 manifolds, so that isn't an option. You'll need to use a rail that you can bolt onto your throttle bodies, you already have the injector holes on the bodies. Now it's just a case of finding an appropriate rail, and an injector setup that will fit those holes nicely. Perhaps the original bike fuel rail? Not sure if that would work, I imagine the original bike injectors would be too small and require wiring work to get them to plug in to the mk1 injector loom. I used standard rail and injectors on mine so can't really help on that one. Thanks - I think I have the original bike fuel rail so will see about putting that back on, and if so, whether it would fit Mazda injectors (or the other way around!).
When they were making the manifold they asked me if I wanted to keep the secondary butterflies, and a quick google suggested it would be difficult for an ECU to use them, so I got them removed and the holes welded over. Also need to work out if/how to attach a filter for the incoming air, I've got a bike air box so might cut that out and find a way to attach a sausage filter or similar.
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Post by Bilbo on May 17, 2022 16:58:01 GMT
Yeah good idea on removing the secondaries, that's what I did and what I see most people do tbh. Keeps it simple.
As for filters, I personally run open trumpets and have done for 2 years, but if you do go for a filter a sausage filter with a backing plate to attach it to is probably your best option. Just don't run individual socks, it's well documented that they do sap power.
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Post by dadbif on May 17, 2022 21:14:52 GMT
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Post by atlex on May 18, 2022 7:33:17 GMT
I'm on the JC40 series, also good but a bit smaller. No power loss.
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Post by boggissimo on Jun 21, 2022 14:08:19 GMT
I was supposed to be doing a trackday yesterday, but on the way home from the sprint at Brooklands I noticed the 'charge' light was on, and then that the engine temperature was right up by the H, whereas it normally sits just below the middle. Steam was coming out from the expansion tank hose too. Not good, but not too far from home, so I stopped a couple of times to let it cool down, topped up the tank and trundled home. Had a look under the bonnet and the alternator belt had disappeared - hence the car not charging and the waterpump not running, leading to the overheating. Only trouble is I didn't have a spare and was due to be out all day at Brands Hatch, and most of the car parts shops are shut on a Sunday. The one that was open didn't have the right belt in stock, so I couldn't make it to the trackday, which was a shame (though I'm now booked in for Llandow so it's not the end of the world, just the end of £200  ). It did mean that I had an unexpected day off to tinker in the garage, and once I'd bought and fitted the new belt I thought I would take off the intake manifold to replace it with the one I got off ebay and had cleaned up and powder coated. Not a fun job really, it all came off OK but felt like I was changing the socket/extension/universal joint on the spanners for each different bolt/nut! A bit of contorsionism and coolant mostly in the drip pan and it was off. Funny though, although it seemed the same from the top, the ports and other bits of the original manifold weren't the same as the one I'd had coated: Turns out it's for a 1.8, or at least a later/different 1.6, so I can't use it after all. So if anyone wants a nice powdercoated intake for their 1.8....  I've checked the ebay ad and it was advertised as for a NA 1.6, but I didn't pay much for it, and I'll be doing the ITB thing fairly soon anyway. In fact, I took the chance to have a cheeky test fit: I'm going to need to either have very small trumpets, or move the brake bias valve!
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Post by boggissimo on Jun 21, 2022 14:42:13 GMT
Oh yes, one more thing - when I saw the missing alternator belt, I also noticed that the power steering belt was worn on one side and starting to fray, I think possibly because without the tension of the alternator belt on the other side it shifted position on the pulleys. So I fitted a new one of them too.
I noticed that the bottom bolt on the alternator didn't have a nut on the other side, which seemed odd, and might have contributed to the alternator belt going ping, if it wasn't being held properly in position. Don't suppose anyone knows what size/thread that bolt is? Part number according to partsouq is 999401001, or 999401000
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Post by Zed. on Jun 21, 2022 18:04:44 GMT
I noticed that the bottom bolt on the alternator didn't have a nut on the other side, which seemed odd possibly doesnt have a nut as I believe some alternators are threadded.... anyway, what size alt / wp belt do I need to bring to Llandow?  Rich. |
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Post by Zed. on Jun 21, 2022 18:08:27 GMT
Turns out it's for a 1.8, or at least a later/different 1.6 1.8 manifold, all 1.6 (B6 / B6t / B6ze(rs) etc.) portfaces have the injector-cutout and pair of coolant-passageways - legacy of transverse fitment in fwd & 4wd 323's  Rich. |
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Post by boggissimo on Jun 22, 2022 9:48:49 GMT
OK, anyone want a nicely powdercoated 1.8 manifold? I can bring to Llandow...
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Post by boggissimo on Jun 27, 2022 9:34:43 GMT
Have sold the manifold via Facebook group and picked up a couple of spare belts to bring to Wales! Now just need to fix the coolant leak from the manifold I put back on.
I went to top it up on Saturday and it just pissed out onto the floor (obviously not done until I'd put everything back together) and it looks like it's coming out from under the manifold. I had put a new gasket on and I thought maybe I hadn't done it up tight enough, but going round all the nuts and bolts again didn't make any difference, so I'm taking it off again and will use some gasket sealant stuff. If that doesn't work I'll have difficulty getting to Llandow at all, so fingers crossed...
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).
le sigh