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Post by ghostrider on Jun 16, 2016 12:33:39 GMT
I've been following the for's and against's fairly closely - out of morbid curiosity as much as anything else - and I must say; I have never seen so much prarrie canoe-slinging from both sides of the fence before in all my days - they should all be ashamed of themselves. Equally disgusting is that between the two choices, you have the media ramping each of those opinions up with bold headlines that many people will not read past and caring about nothing more than the sales that they are making from this. I find it very difficult to get genuine, unbiased information about it all as it seems that everyone has an agenda. I can't be the only one and yet many will base their decisions upon this. I find it all very sad. I know which way I'll vote and for what reasons but really, whichever way this goes, it feels like just under half the country isn't going to be happy about it. Doesn't sound much like a 'United' Kingdom to me...  |
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Post by wannabe on Jun 16, 2016 14:24:32 GMT
+1 on struggling to find credible, unbiased, accurate information.
I like Star Trek.
I like what it represents - the people of Earth coming together as one, with poverty and hunger eradicated, and instead of one spending ones life accumulating wealth and/or 'stuff' to survive (because anyone can have anything they want due to replicators), people are instead free to spend their lives learning and applying that knowledge towards the development of the species and their own self-betterment.
For that reason, I think that breaking down borders and seeing the world as one place where we all live is a good thing.
However...
I don't like that the bureaucrats in the EU are working hard on effectively making the entire EU area a surveillance state in regards to transport, with no-one actually having voted for them to do so.
They are pushing for mandatory in-vehicle technology and roadside infrastructure so that all vehicles can be tracked at all times, in order that they can ultimately implement road user charging, which does of course mean knowing where you are at all times, how fast you are going (so whether you should be charged with speeding), what you are driving, how erratically you are driving, etc. (Much of this is already taking place with 'Black Boxes' forced on young drivers if they want any hope of getting insured for even a half reasonable sum of money.) And if all this means that they can then roll-out autonomous vehicles (which similarly would either be registered to individuals or require Identification to be used to book a 'pool car') then it's one more step towards removing our freedom to move around with any degree of privacy or freedom of choice with regards to route / speeds / etc.
"So what if they know where you are going and what you are doing??", I hear many people cry. Well, I personally don't want faceless companies and agencies to know every detail about me and my life at the click of a button (hence I detest stupid Facebook etc), or the government/the police recording my activities 'just in case' (which they do now through ANPR cameras and mobile phone tracking regulations they have put in place). "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide", say the same people mentioned earlier, but if I'm not a criminal, why do my movements need to be recorded and stored? Just in case I commit a crime? If you extend that logic, would be legal to imprison someone 'just in case' they might do something in the future, which leads you to places with dodgy Human Rights records, like China - no trial, no judgement, you just 'disappear' and there's nothing you or your family can do about it.
Am I making a huge leap there, and sounding like a paranoid tabloid reader? Perhaps. But it is true to say that the EU is pushing forward their plans for surveillance and road user charging at every opportunity. They are offering €millions (if not €billions, I can't remember) of funding for 'connected corridors', which would have infrastructure along it that talked to vehicles. And they have made 'eCall' mandatory from 2018, so at all times your car must know where you are 'just in case' you crash, at which point it broadcasts your location, vehicle details, airbag deployment information, number of passengers (I think), and I'm suuuure they would never store your information at any other time. (Free satnav with all BMWs now! Wooo! I wonder why that offer came up...) One chap at Ford was once quoted as saying "We've know where everyone has been driving for ages" (to paraphrase) but then had to hastily retract it.
So, it might be just one issue, but it is an important one in my mind. I don't think I trust this (or any) government of this country not to foist Road User Charging on us (to offset falling fuel duty revenues due to improving fuel efficiency and their own push towards electric/hybrid vehicles, along with charging for 'costs' of other impacts, like noise, emissions, etc) but at least if it's just our Government doing the dirty, we have some ability to give them a talking to.
[/rant]
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Clem
Chats A Bit
Posts: 236 
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Post by Clem on Jun 16, 2016 15:29:56 GMT
+1 on struggling to find credible, unbiased, accurate information. I like Star Trek. I like what it represents - the people of Earth coming together as one, with poverty and hunger eradicated, and instead of one spending ones life accumulating wealth and/or 'stuff' to survive (because anyone can have anything they want due to replicators), people are instead free to spend their lives learning and applying that knowledge towards the development of the species and their own self-betterment. For that reason, I think that breaking down borders and seeing the world as one place where we all live is a good thing. However... I don't like that the bureaucrats in the EU are working hard on effectively making the entire EU area a surveillance state in regards to transport, with no-one actually having voted for them to do so. They are pushing for mandatory in-vehicle technology and roadside infrastructure so that all vehicles can be tracked at all times, in order that they can ultimately implement road user charging, which does of course mean knowing where you are at all times, how fast you are going (so whether you should be charged with speeding), what you are driving, how erratically you are driving, etc. (Much of this is already taking place with 'Black Boxes' forced on young drivers if they want any hope of getting insured for even a half reasonable sum of money.) And if all this means that they can then roll-out autonomous vehicles (which similarly would either be registered to individuals or require Identification to be used to book a 'pool car') then it's one more step towards removing our freedom to move around with any degree of privacy or freedom of choice with regards to route / speeds / etc. "So what if they know where you are going and what you are doing??", I hear many people cry. Well, I personally don't want faceless companies and agencies to know every detail about me and my life at the click of a button (hence I detest stupid Facebook etc), or the government/the police recording my activities 'just in case' (which they do now through ANPR cameras and mobile phone tracking regulations they have put in place). "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide", say the same people mentioned earlier, but if I'm not a criminal, why do my movements need to be recorded and stored? Just in case I commit a crime? If you extend that logic, would be legal to imprison someone 'just in case' they might do something in the future, which leads you to places with dodgy Human Rights records, like China - no trial, no judgement, you just 'disappear' and there's nothing you or your family can do about it. Am I making a huge leap there, and sounding like a paranoid tabloid reader? Perhaps. But it is true to say that the EU is pushing forward their plans for surveillance and road user charging at every opportunity. They are offering €millions (if not €billions, I can't remember) of funding for 'connected corridors', which would have infrastructure along it that talked to vehicles. And they have made 'eCall' mandatory from 2018, so at all times your car must know where you are 'just in case' you crash, at which point it broadcasts your location, vehicle details, airbag deployment information, number of passengers (I think), and I'm suuuure they would never store your information at any other time. (Free satnav with all BMWs now! Wooo! I wonder why that offer came up...) One chap at Ford was once quoted as saying "We've know where everyone has been driving for ages" (to paraphrase) but then had to hastily retract it. So, it might be just one issue, but it is an important one in my mind. I don't think I trust this (or any) government of this country not to foist Road User Charging on us (to offset falling fuel duty revenues due to improving fuel efficiency and their own push towards electric/hybrid vehicles, along with charging for 'costs' of other impacts, like noise, emissions, etc) but at least if it's just our Government doing the dirty, we have some ability to give them a talking to. [/rant] I'm totally with you on not wanting to be watched everywhere and anywhere I go, but I dont see how voting out of the EU (with whatever negatives that brings, but its safe to say it will have negatives) helps. Even you accept that its likely to come in via our own government (or worse, private insurance companies). It just seems like voting leave wont help with the problem you want to avoid, but will harm in other ways ... |
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Post by Rickster on Jun 16, 2016 18:12:04 GMT
Reading this post has inspired me to write up this facebook post: Which is believe to be worth thinking about ... well well that was good but utterly depressing! |
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Post by welshy1 on Jun 16, 2016 19:33:49 GMT
Well ive always never liked the idea of the eu and the last 5 years have only confirmed my thought on it. I will vote out but both sides of the debate have been pretty poor one side says something other side denies it, cameron goes all britian be destroyed which is bullprarrie canoe even by his standards leave campaign says thats rubbish.
All of the political programms have been heavily biased for remain mainly bbc i will add then you have idiots like geldoff and eddie izzard shouting and not doing a dam bit of difference apart from getting people to vote the opposite of them which is out.
But after todays news with the death of jo cox pales into nothing when 2 kids have lost there mum, husband has lost his wife, parents have lost there daughter. Once this vote is done whatever the choice we seriously need to move on to more important issues in this country.
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Post by Rickster on Jun 16, 2016 19:54:16 GMT
+1 on struggling to find credible, unbiased, accurate information. I like Star Trek. I like what it represents - the people of Earth coming together as one, with poverty and hunger eradicated, and instead of one spending ones life accumulating wealth and/or 'stuff' to survive (because anyone can have anything they want due to replicators), people are instead free to spend their lives learning and applying that knowledge towards the development of the species and their own self-betterment. For that reason, I think that breaking down borders and seeing the world as one place where we all live is a good thing. However... I don't like that the bureaucrats in the EU are working hard on effectively making the entire EU area a surveillance state in regards to transport, with no-one actually having voted for them to do so. They are pushing for mandatory in-vehicle technology and roadside infrastructure so that all vehicles can be tracked at all times, in order that they can ultimately implement road user charging, which does of course mean knowing where you are at all times, how fast you are going (so whether you should be charged with speeding), what you are driving, how erratically you are driving, etc. (Much of this is already taking place with 'Black Boxes' forced on young drivers if they want any hope of getting insured for even a half reasonable sum of money.) And if all this means that they can then roll-out autonomous vehicles (which similarly would either be registered to individuals or require Identification to be used to book a 'pool car') then it's one more step towards removing our freedom to move around with any degree of privacy or freedom of choice with regards to route / speeds / etc. "So what if they know where you are going and what you are doing??", I hear many people cry. Well, I personally don't want faceless companies and agencies to know every detail about me and my life at the click of a button (hence I detest stupid Facebook etc), or the government/the police recording my activities 'just in case' (which they do now through ANPR cameras and mobile phone tracking regulations they have put in place). "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide", say the same people mentioned earlier, but if I'm not a criminal, why do my movements need to be recorded and stored? Just in case I commit a crime? If you extend that logic, would be legal to imprison someone 'just in case' they might do something in the future, which leads you to places with dodgy Human Rights records, like China - no trial, no judgement, you just 'disappear' and there's nothing you or your family can do about it. Am I making a huge leap there, and sounding like a paranoid tabloid reader? Perhaps. But it is true to say that the EU is pushing forward their plans for surveillance and road user charging at every opportunity. They are offering €millions (if not €billions, I can't remember) of funding for 'connected corridors', which would have infrastructure along it that talked to vehicles. And they have made 'eCall' mandatory from 2018, so at all times your car must know where you are 'just in case' you crash, at which point it broadcasts your location, vehicle details, airbag deployment information, number of passengers (I think), and I'm suuuure they would never store your information at any other time. (Free satnav with all BMWs now! Wooo! I wonder why that offer came up...) One chap at Ford was once quoted as saying "We've know where everyone has been driving for ages" (to paraphrase) but then had to hastily retract it. So, it might be just one issue, but it is an important one in my mind. I don't think I trust this (or any) government of this country not to foist Road User Charging on us (to offset falling fuel duty revenues due to improving fuel efficiency and their own push towards electric/hybrid vehicles, along with charging for 'costs' of other impacts, like noise, emissions, etc) but at least if it's just our Government doing the dirty, we have some ability to give them a talking to. [/rant] I'm totally with you on not wanting to be watched everywhere and anywhere I go, but I dont see how voting out of the EU (with whatever negatives that brings, but its safe to say it will have negatives) helps. Even you accept that its likely to come in via our own government (or worse, private insurance companies). It just seems like voting leave wont help with the problem you want to avoid, but will harm in other ways ... It is very worrying regarding this being watched everywhere but it is a little unfair to blame the EU when the UK has many more cctv and surveillance cameras than any other country in Europe. In fact, some of my German, French and Polish colleagues actually ask why the British put up with it? |
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Post by 5alive on Jun 16, 2016 19:59:50 GMT
Up the revolution  bunch of chunts,the lot of them,either way. |
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Post by atlex on Jun 16, 2016 21:09:31 GMT
noooooooooo! not a political thread.. aaarg.
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Post by joeytalent on Jun 16, 2016 21:21:28 GMT
But after todays news with the death of jo cox pales into nothing when 2 kids have lost there mum, husband has lost his wife, parents have lost there daughter. Once this vote is done whatever the choice we seriously need to move on to more important issues in this country. Well said. RIP Jo Cox. Puts politicians petty squabbling into perspective. Hopefully one thing the referendum will do is increase voter turnout (as it did in Scotland). |
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Post by atlex on Jun 16, 2016 21:36:57 GMT
Love Europe. Love europeans. I am european. I love the culture. I'm profoundly proud of the European contribution to humanity.
But EU parliamentary membership has for the time being served its purpose and there is little it can do for us that we cannot do ourselves.
Maybe one day it will serve a purpose again.
Nothing is forever.
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Post by myothercarsa2cv on Jun 17, 2016 11:01:49 GMT
This referendum build up has gone on for too long. There has been very little sensible discussion between the ins and outs. The politicians on both sides have shown their true colours. Friends and family have been divided and engaged in full blown arguments. Propaganda is on a scale I've never seen before in my life (I'm only 30 though). And now a by all accounts upstanding and decent person has been killed over the issue, it appears.
Frankly nothing good has come of this referendum and the sooner it's over and we move on the better. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people in a week's time, I sincerely hope they are able to put it behind them.
As it is for many petrolheads, the journey is more important to me than the destination, and, while it's been an education and at times enlightening, this is not a journey I want to go on again.
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Post by wannabe on Jun 17, 2016 12:54:47 GMT
I'm totally with you on not wanting to be watched everywhere and anywhere I go, but I dont see how voting out of the EU (with whatever negatives that brings, but its safe to say it will have negatives) helps. Even you accept that its likely to come in via our own government (or worse, private insurance companies). It just seems like voting leave wont help with the problem you want to avoid, but will harm in other ways ... It is very worrying regarding this being watched everywhere but it is a little unfair to blame the EU when the UK has many more cctv and surveillance cameras than any other country in Europe. In fact, some of my German, French and Polish colleagues actually ask why the British put up with it? Fair comments, both... lol |
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Post by AutotestAddict on Jun 23, 2016 10:10:43 GMT
Hooray, last day of this nonsense!
The question is, are you cleverer than Stephen Hawking, inventor of the universe? Are you better informed than the OECD? Do you know more than the chief exec of the NHS about what is best for the NHS? If so, you can justify your out vote. For the rest of us, in is probably the best bet....
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Post by welshy1 on Jun 23, 2016 21:15:52 GMT
Hooray, last day of this nonsense! The question is, are you cleverer than Stephen Hawking, inventor of the universe? Are you better informed than the OECD? Do you know more than the chief exec of the NHS about what is best for the NHS? If so, you can justify your out vote. For the rest of us, in is probably the best bet.... The nhs will still carry on being run badly, the universe will still spin, the oecd have been wrong on many occasion and my vote isnt based on any of that. its based on my political opinion and that is the eu is killing europe and i want britian to lead the way forward to its end that why i voted leave. Anyway we still remain in the government can overrule the vote anyway. And the eu will certainly just ignore it or make the country vote again like ireland did with the lisbern treaty. |
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Post by Rickster on Jun 24, 2016 6:44:07 GMT
Welcome to a Brave new Britain?
Hope it doesn't all go horribly wrong!
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bunch of chunts,the lot of them,either way.
