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Post by atlex on Nov 10, 2020 21:11:23 GMT
Stickied since I think this is a good thread.
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Post by thruxton on Nov 11, 2020 7:26:10 GMT
I also use a master cylinder stabiliser brace. This certainly strengthens up the mastercylinder position. I'm not sure that it's necessary. But I did once try to push the brake pedal through the bulk head during an ...... oh ********uck moment on track  Regards. Rich. |
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Post by binner on Nov 11, 2020 9:10:06 GMT
In my mk1 I used yellow stuff, Roddisons and PBS Comp. PBS Comp had better feel but were a bit noisy from from cold, Roddisons were nearly as good. The EBS ones I had quality issues with.
The PBS Comps are not currently available for the mk2.5 sport I have now (Big brakes) so i am using Roddisons again and happy with them.
TBH if you are on stock power then just get better pads, change the fluid for ATE type 200 or similar, brace the master cylinder and get braided lines. You may also want to fit a brake balance adjuster, it made a difference in the mk1 as the bias was too far forward pushing it rearwards gradually at a track day helped as the rears started to slow the car more. It is a balancing act though, too much rear bias and the rears lock and you exit the track. There is a forum post somewhere that shows the balance of the stock system from the mk1 to mk2.5
If you move on to sticky tyres the you may be able to make use of additional brake power at that point look at more powerful calipers etc
I have no idea how much track time you have had so if the answer is not much then max out what you have first then you will benefit from the expense of upgrading the whole system.
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Post by mrwallace on Nov 11, 2020 9:54:56 GMT
I compete in sprints and hill climbS so need something that works from cold and also drive the car to the events however I also do trackdays at Knockhill every so often which is harder on brakes, so I need something that is "dual duty" like you want.
I've now used stock pads, Axxis ULT's, Roddison and Stoptech sports. The Stoptech pads are the best so far, they only need a little heat to work and then stay consistent and give good bite and braking, they're easy to modulate up to the point of locking the brakes (no ABS) and take a good bit of heat without fade, plus they're not noisy or dusty. They do need a little clean/warm up after pottering about to get them working properly again though. They're also lasting very well after a season of sprints/hills and maybe half a dozen trackdays plus they're pretty cheap. I wasn't that impressed with the Roddisons and they didn't last that long.
I would still love to try some carbotechs (or proper track pads) but just can't justfy the cost! Plus some of the more dedicated track pads don't work on the road/lower temps and destroy wheels with corrosive dust (I know that's not the case for carbotechs but cost is). You can't have the "best" racing brake pads and use them on the road, there has to be a compromise somewhere as proper high mu pads only work at high temps and will destroy discs below that.
As stated above a brake bias valve also made a big difference in being able to use all 4 brakes without just locking the fronts, not such an issue an a smooth race track but a big issue on the road or rough tracks. Not needed on a 2.5 though.
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jon
Chats A Lot
Posts: 270
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Post by jon on Nov 11, 2020 10:04:03 GMT
On the '5 previously I had Mintex 1144's, they were better than standard but a bit less bitey when cold, and dusted like crazy. They didn't last too well either.
The Carbotechs with mk2.5 calipers/discs on a mk1 bite better than standard, even when cold, and also seem to last very very well, even with multiple trackdays which helps as they are expensive to start with!
With sticky tyres hitting the brakes hard at 70mph is like hitting a brick wall, they really are that good.
One other mod if you are cheap and don't want an adjustable bias valve - if you fit the bias valve from an ABS car on non-ABS, you get a lot more rear bias and it's a straight swap. It's not perfect as under very very heavy braking on track it'll unweight the rears enough that they will just be on the point of locking, but it's totally manageable (and cheap!)
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Post by wannabe on Nov 11, 2020 10:43:00 GMT
Thanks for the link! Those carbotech are not cheap...  No, but they are literally the best pads I've ever used on track. I cant speak for the Roadster, so like I say the 10s may be overkill and you'll get locking issues, maybe even the 8s are, but when I used them on a heavier, more powerful car I stopped coasting and braking early, and literally stayed on the throttle until the last braking board I felt brave enough to brake at and they just work, having 100% trust brakes is a beautiful thing. If you don't have confidence in them you stay on them more, braking earlier and longer and end up putting more and more heat through them each lap compounding the problem. I'm williing to give others a try on the Roadster I'm sure the Rodders pads will be a good start, its a big ol' saving and I'm certainly not averse to that for sure. Also, whilst some of these pads are expensive, the Roadster doesn't eat pads (I think Ive done one set in the last 6 years lol) so something to consider is having two sets for road and track.... put some low dusting decent road pads on when your off track and you'll get a lot more life out of your expensive track pads only using them in their optimum window.  Would be cool to have your feedback as well on the Rodders pads |
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Post by niklas on Nov 14, 2020 20:40:22 GMT
Ive tried greenstuff, ax6, carbotech xp8, xp10, xp12, hawk dtc60 on my car.
The best thing is brake ducts
Apart from.cooling the brakes, the xp10 is the best all around brakes followed by the dtc60 (more dust and squealing) and the xp8 (a little less tracky). I actually like the dtc60 the best as they're as good as the xp10 but with a different feel and something like 1/2-2/3 the price.
But do go ahead and build front brake ducts for tracked cars. It extends brake lifa a lot and is very much worth it.
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Post by batou on Nov 15, 2020 9:47:30 GMT
Ive tried greenstuff, ax6, carbotech xp8, xp10, xp12, hawk dtc60 on my car. The best thing is brake ducts Apart from.cooling the brakes, the xp10 is the best all around brakes followed by the dtc60 (more dust and squealing) and the xp8 (a little less tracky). I actually like the dtc60 the best as they're as good as the xp10 but with a different feel and something like 1/2-2/3 the price. But do go ahead and build front brake ducts for tracked cars. It extends brake lifa a lot and is very much worth it.
Great point, I forgot to mention cooling do you have an example of the setup on your car? I've got a set of these bookmarked in as I always meant to connect up the R-Package lip ducts at some point...  They are a little pricey at £85 for what they are but I don't really have the tooling to make something up either, of course theres the quick and dirty solution of zip ties but I'd be concerned about them popping off with steering movement. Also do they still make the XP10s in red? Pointless but they do look proper you can't argue with that.   Carbotech XP10 MINI Cooper S R56 by batousan, on Flickr |
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Post by niklas on Nov 15, 2020 9:58:16 GMT
I've got something similar to the ones you linked, home made with air flow pointing towards disc center.
The feed is from two openings in the front through 2,5" ducting zip tied to the arb.
If I would do the brake cooling again I think I would get the feed from the sides of the radiator ducting (running a "nascar" front and therefore larger rad ducting side plates).
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Post by Zed. on Nov 15, 2020 12:02:08 GMT
to me thats wasting airflow across the inner-face of the disc, better to feed as close to the discs & hub centre as possible as this cools the hub bearing (slightly) and feeds airflow to the discs vent / vanes... disc airflow * always from inside - outside otherwise you cook the hub bearings  I've got something similar to the ones you linked, home made with air flow pointing towards disc center. +1  theres a good area to feed between caliper & upright, especially if you have big-brakes. * also, if you have 'curved-vane' discs check their orintation for in-out flow Rich. |
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Post by noobie on Nov 15, 2020 19:36:00 GMT
Those Singular brake duct plates are infamous for causing stress failures of discs. Best avoided.
I've also seen some aero testing once that compared a hose-ducted brake setup (aimed at the hub) to a control arm mounted scoop setup (common on many factory sports cars). The scoops outperformed the ducts, so given their simplicity I'm surprised you don't see them more often.
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Post by atlex on Nov 15, 2020 19:47:37 GMT
Those Singular brake duct plates are infamous for causing stress failures of discs. Best avoided. I've also seen some aero testing once that compared a hose-ducted brake setup (aimed at the hub) to a control arm mounted scoop setup (common on many factory sports cars). The scoops outperformed the ducts, so given their simplicity I'm surprised you don't see them more often. Linky for the aero testing ? :-) |
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Post by binner on Oct 12, 2021 9:00:48 GMT
I like PBS protrack for my nbfl 1.8 svt sport wit big brakes. I have just swapped from Roddisons and find the PBS pads have better modulation and firmer initial bite.
I would also recommend ATE type 200 (formerly known as superblue) as it can take the heat of a track day. I haven't ever done a race so cannot comment.
I have braided brake hoses which also help feel.
If you have a mk1 I would also recommend a brake bias valve as you need to push the bias backward to get more done by the rears. fit it and then read the instructions about altering the bias. I used to have a mk1.
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Post by howardb66 on Oct 12, 2021 14:04:24 GMT
I like PBS protrack for my nbfl 1.8 svt sport wit big brakes. I have just swapped from Roddisons and find the PBS pads have better modulation and firmer initial bite. I would also recommend ATE type 200 (formerly known as superblue) as it can take the heat of a track day. I haven't ever done a race so cannot comment. I have braided brake hoses which also help feel. If you have a mk1 I would also recommend a brake bias valve as you need to push the bias backward to get more done by the rears. fit it and then read the instructions about altering the bias. I used to have a mk1. Interesting, I think the Rodders pads are ok but when pushing on a bit(!) the initial bite is a little soft. Might try the PBS ones next….👍🏻 |
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Post by batou on Oct 12, 2021 14:41:24 GMT
I like PBS protrack for my nbfl 1.8 svt sport wit big brakes. I have just swapped from Roddisons and find the PBS pads have better modulation and firmer initial bite. I would also recommend ATE type 200 (formerly known as superblue) as it can take the heat of a track day. I haven't ever done a race so cannot comment. I have braided brake hoses which also help feel. If you have a mk1 I would also recommend a brake bias valve as you need to push the bias backward to get more done by the rears. fit it and then read the instructions about altering the bias. I used to have a mk1. Hows the dust on the PBS compared to Rodders? |
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le sigh